MnM Minutes CC 20100722

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Contents

M&M Ballot Reconciliation Conf. Call 4:00 PM Eastern (Date above)

Return to Mnm Minutes

Agenda - Core Principles Reconciliation

Attendees

  • Woody Beeler (GWB)
  • Lloyd McKenzie (LM)
  • Gregg Seppala (GS)
  • Andy Stechishin (AS)

Working document

The working document is the reconciliation spreadsheet posted on HL7 Ballot Desktop. Items are collected by the entries on the "Comment Grouping" column.

Comment Grouping "GWB-GG (Neg-Mi)"

Four items designated Negative in this grouping

Item 20 (GWB-GG Neg-Mi) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Link to : "../conformance/conformance.htm"

Discussion:

Voter note: Is this an official document? If so, should have a link

Item 26 (GWB-GG Neg-Mi) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Suggest change to:

As noted earlier in this section [link previous four words to #coreP_V3_RIM_and_Datatypes] there are numerous "types" defined in HL7 V3 models. For this discussion, the prmary types are "class" and "data type".

Voter:

Section 3 has a definition of type that should be somehow tied in here, this phrase in column J is not helpful to understanding section 3.4.

Item 36 (GWB-GG Neg-Mi) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Link is to : ../templates/templates.htm#TemplateExampleApplied

Voter:

Need official reference

Item 37 (GWB-GG Neg-Mi) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Change the last two sentences under number 8 to read:

Thus, for example, the assertion of a different primary performer for a descendant class simply means that there will be two such performers listed - the conducted performer and the addition. In this example, when using the current (new) context control structure, one can accomplish the equivalent of a participation "override" (from the prior context control structure) the "PRF" participation code in the ActRelationship leading to the descendant, and assigning a new performer Participation to the descendant. (Note that the new performer then becomes part of the conductible content of the Act for which the performer has been overridden.)

Also SEE NOTE AT ITEM 172

Voter:

Is this referring to the 'old way'? If not, and this refers to the new way of doing things, then the text should not use the word override as a way to explain - yes I see it in quotes, but its still override, which is no longer used. (which by the way is sometimes spelled override, and in this sentence is over-ride - should be consistent)

Comment Grouping "GWB-GG - A-*"

13 items with an Annotation (A-*) vote.

Item 17 (GWB-GG - A-T) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Change second sentence of "class" buller to: The "type" of an attribute is a data type, whereas the "type" of an association is yet another RIM class.

Item 21 (GWB-GG - A-S) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Remove bold

Item 22 (GWB-GG - A-S) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Drop duplicate "the"

Item 30 (GWB-GG - A-T) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Fix

Item 140 (GWB-GG - A-Q) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Change "XML communications" to "XML-encoded information"

Item 141 (GWB-GG - A-S) LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Set link to RCL document at "../conformance/conformance.htm"

Item 142 (GWB-GG - A-S) LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Add "records"

Item 143 (GWB-GG - A-S) LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

change the to that

Item 145 (GWB-GG - A-T) LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Change

Item 172 (GWB-GG - A-T) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with Mod"

IN REGARDS to 3.5 = I suggest renamibng "Section 6 - Accountability" to something like: "Section 6 - Special Topics on Implementation and Representation" and include in it:

  • Context Conduction
  • Accountability
  • Update Mode
  • Negation
  • Record Characteristics, and
  • Model References

from Rio Tuesday Q3 (see minutes)

As for the sentence referenced in this Line item: change to read: "After protracted discussion within HL7, the prior mechanism was deprecated ....."


Item 173 (GWB-GG - A-S) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with Mod"

Suggest a combination as:

conductible context — the conductible context of an Act is that portion of its context that may be conducted to descendant Acts; whether or not a given ActRelationship or Participation off the Act or its ancestors is part of the conductible context of the Act is determined by the value of the "conductible" property of the code asserted for the given element's typeCode.

Item 225 (GWB-GG - A-T) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Remove stutter from first sentence of 3.5

Item 226 (GWB-GG - A-S) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with Mod"

Suggest modify first sentence here to read:

"… each model must identify a single style of context conduction that will be used by all of its relationships by … "

Comment Grouping "GG-Neg* Chapter 3"

21 Items with Neg votes - dispositions proposed by McKenzie

Item 18 (GG-NegMj) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

HELP from LM or GG, as GB cannot understand what the intent of this paragraph is.

Suggest: In general, the type in derived models must be the same as the type from the reference model, though constraints on the reference model type may be used as well. The expressed model for datatypes is always that specified in the abstract data types.

Item 19 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Add a forward reference to where expressed model is defined.

Item 23 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

GG - Suggest add "value domain" to the Glossary woith definition:

The "value domain" for an element whose type is a data type (such as an attribute or data type component) is the complete set (?) of allowed values for that element as specified by the definition of the assigned data type. Thus the value domain for an element typed as INT (Integer) is all integer numbers and "1" is a member of that value domain, whereas "1.1" is not.

Item 24 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Eitjer drop, revise or refer to "exceptional values"

Item 25 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

GG - either drop these (and all of 3.3.2?) or link them to the Abstract spec using forms like:

../vocabulary/NullFlavor.htm#PINF

Item 27 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

GG needs to find better wording.

Item 28 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

GG needs to find better wording.

Item 29 and 31 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

LM and GG - This section is very difficult to read and understand. I suggest that we need a "Table" that includes the following columns: Model type ("reference". "expressed", "implied", "applied") Defined in (RIM, CIM, template) Example: (CIM, RMIM, Interface, whatever) Purpose: (in a sentence or phrase, how used in Hl7 V3)

Item 32 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Clarify

Item 33 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Fix

Item 34 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Sounds Persuasive to me

Change "constraint models" to "potential applied models"

Item 38 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

GG LM We need a sentence of "rationale" for "serialized models"

Also SEE NOTE AT ITEM 172

"HL7 models define content to be exchanged. This exchange frequently occurs in a serial manner with bytes of information being sent in a particular order. HL7 must therefore define the order of serialization to ensure interoperability. This is done by defining a normative way for ordering (or serializing) the content of the model. All HL7 static models that can be used to define the expressed models or applied models for instances must therefore be serializable.

Item 116 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Not Persuasive"

Not clear how adding examples will help. Seeing an example of "PORX_MT123456" for static model or "ED" for datatype isn't going to help a newcomer understand better. The definitions seem clear to the author. Specific guidance on where clarity is lacking would be helpful.

Item 117 (GG-Neg*) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Not persuasive with mod"

Will not add examples here, but will reference the abstract data type specification where the characteristics of flavors are defined in more detail and where there are lots of examples.

Item 119 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Will add a diagram and/or example section at the end. Clearer expressions on where the existing definitions are unclear would be helpful.

Item 120 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will add an example

Item 171 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Will add an example of PINF.equal(NINF).equal(false).

Item 219 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Change to "but it is acceptable for the data content to not conform to the narrow value domain provided that the instance explicitly declares that it does not conform by declaring a null flavor."

Item 222 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will change to "The expressed model is the model that determines the names and structure of the instance." (or similar wording acceptable to Grahame.)

Item 253 (GG-Neg*) (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will change "complete, implementable" to "serializable"

Comment Grouping "GG - Neg* Chapters 4 & 6"

5 items

Item 100 (GG-Neg) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

(Per the NOTE AT ITEM 172, "6. Accountability" will become "6.1 Accountability")

Will add a reference to the abstract datatypes specification.

Item 185 (GG-Neg) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will expand on wording

Item 228 (GG-Neg) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Move 4th paragraph to chapter 6, reassign this comment to 6, in chapter 6 add caveat regarding partial updates from multiple sources, add forward reference to chapter 6 to the end of 3rd paragraph.

Item 186 (GG-Neg) (moved/seconded) vote see below

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Not persuasive"

The idea of notification, fulfillment request and state transition request make ownership clear. The first two are talking about an object owned by the sender. The last is talking about an object owned by the receiver. In case #2 (state transition request), there's no assumption that the sender has an object at all. If they do, they can do what they like to it. All the interaction deals with is a request to do something with an object on the receiver system.


Item 247 (GG-Neg) (moved/seconded) vote see below

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Considered for future use"

Will add a section on trigger events at some point and will get into detail regarding the different types of trigger events and their behaviors. When that occurs, will reference that section from here for further explanation.

Motion

There was much discussion on items 186 and 247.

Motion: Ultimately the use of update control is dependent on the dynamic model, regretfully we do not at this time have a model to link to. Once the dynamic model is completed we will update address the comments in items 186 and 247. (LM/AS) 3-0-0

Comment Grouping "GG - A-*"

25 items

Item 35 (GG - A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Not persuasive"

Seems clear to me that "also" referes to the "applied model" in the opening conditional clause of this sentence.

Item 118 (GG - A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will add print names in brackets

Item 144 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will also capitalize "This"

Item 148 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will make a complete sentence by adding "Applied Models" on the beginning

Item 149 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Not Persuasive"

Schematron is a specific implementation technology. Core Principles needs to be independent of ITSs.

Item 170 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Item 180 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Change

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

This section is being revamped, so the proposed wording may not be used exactly. However, the intention of avoiding a forward reference to update mode will be respected.

Item 181 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Now that Datatypes R2 has been approved, this does not need to be future tense.

Item 182 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Item 183 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will turn this into a reference to a section defining Constraining Model.

Item 184 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will turn this into a reference to a section defining Constraining Model.

Item 218, 220, 221, 223, 224(GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Fix per comments

Item 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245 (GG-A-*) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Fix per comments

Item 246 (GG-A-S) (moved/seconded) vote

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

An example on the use of REF and K will be added after the table.

Item 248(GG- A-T) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive with mod"

Will change "the committee" to "the message specification"

Item 252 (GG-Neg) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Item 253 (??-???) (LM/GS) 3-0-0

Disposition & Disposition Comment - "Persuasive"

Will add "specification"

Adjournment

Adjourned at 4:52 Eastern