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20160302 arb minutes

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ARB - Meeting (Date in Title)


  1. Call to order
  2. Roll Call
    1. Regrets for Mario Hyland
  3. Approval of Agenda and Minutes
  4. Management
  5. Governance
  6. Methodology (60 minutes)
    1. RDF FHIR to RIM (20 minutes)
    2. Health Level Seven International(HL7) Document location(s)(Copied from Last weeks minutes) (20 minutes)
    3. PSS for SAIF-IG (20 minutes)
      1. CBCC would like to discuss this further
  7. Other business and planning
  8. Adjournment

Meeting Information

HL7 ArB Work Group Meeting Minutes

Location: Telcon

Date: 20160302
Time: 3:00pm U.S. Eastern
Facilitator Julian, Tony Note taker(s) Julian, Tony
Attendee Name Affiliation
X Bond,Andy NEHTA
X Constable, Lorraine Constable Consulting Inc.
. Dagnall, Bo HP Enterprise Services
. Hufnagel, Steve ?????
R Hyland, Mario AEGIS
X Julian, Tony Mayo Clinic
X Knapp, Paul Pknapp Consulting
. Loyd, Patrick ICode Solutions
. Lynch, Cecil Accenture
X Milosevic, Zoran Deontik Pty Ltd
. Quinn, John Health Level Seven, Inc.
X Stechishin,Andy CANA Software and Service Ltd.
. Guests
. Grow, Rick U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs
. Kreisler, Austin Leidos
. Pech, Brian Kaiser Permanente
. Legend
X Present
. Absent
R Regrets
Quorum Requirements (Co-chair + 3) Met: Yes


  1. Agenda approval
    1. Agenda approved by concensus
  2. Minute Approval
    1. Motion to accept Minutes(Andy S/Zoran)
    2. Vote unanimous
  3. Methodology
    1. RDF FHIR to RIM
      1. If it existed, this "ontology of the clinical domain" would allow to, and actually be expected to, bridge the gap and bind naturally into the terminology systems - ontological and assertional descriptions of diseases, drugs, anatomy, etc... As per various discussions, I also see the need to ground this ontology in a larger framework, to ensure that best modelling principles are followed. We need to achieve sufficient precision and fidelity to model the domain accurately
      2. Zoran: RIM is a mixed bag of things: Both a foundational ontology and tries to be a schema - representation of record.
      3. Zoran: Come up with an ontology to use as a basis, for mapping between models.
      4. Zoran: RDF is too limited - need semantics of healthcare.
      5. Lorraine: Mapping is collected in the RMIMS.
      6. Zoran: Scoped on medication topic. Need clinical ontology that is common across FHIR and RIM. Implementor from Denmark asking questions implementing patient results. Asking is patient citizen, person, or patient record. Why is it needed? Discussion about what is really a patient resource. Patient has parent and siblings, but is merged in FHIR. The item called "patient" is really patient record. Need to define conceptual world - one being clinical care, another the record of patient care. Healthcare ontology is different from Healtcare records.
      7. Zoran: What does this mean re the project.
      8. What can we do, how, when?
      9. Zoran: New pSS, or modify existing.
      10. Paul: Modify the existing: it is an R&D project. Not a new project, just broader scope - evolution.
      11. Zoran: Agree.
      12. Paul: need to map from FHIR logical model. Other party is the FHIR-PATH language - needs a logical model. We dont have one.
      13. Zoran: how does it relate to CIMI?
      14. Paul: Different thing. FHIR Logical model is model of resources. CIMI models are less definite. They are DCMs.
      15. Zoran: good example. Good to say CIMI logical model, FHIR logical model - are the same semantics? Need upper ontology. Then can do analysis of similiarties.
      16. Brian: CIMI model to FHIR was discussed at an ad-hoc meeting at Intermountain. Grahame was there: Discussion that CIMI models would be tightly constrained profiles in FHIR terms.
      17. Lorraine: Brett reported to OO the FDC project that there was work to create a logical model.
      18. Paul: Not talking about a logical model for FHIR, mechanism to define logical model IN FHIR.
      19. Andy B: CIMI/FHIR meeting was talking about co-existence. Grahame was working with NEHTA to represent logical models in FHIR. CDA could be a complimentary item in FHIR. Grahame has defined mapping in FHIR and resources. Does not create a logical model of FHIR. Could in theory become linked through model mapping.
      20. Zoran: Once you have the mapping you could map across logical models, as well as mapping from Logical to Conceptual.
    2. HL7 Document Location
      1. Lorraine: Google doc users should snapshot and store on HL7
      2. Paul: What capacity does HQ have to backup other data?
      3. Lorraine: None
      4. Paul: We cannot have definitive copies of any of this stuff elsewhere.
      5. Lorraine: we have groups scattered over the place using google docs.
      6. Paul: It is convenient for me to occupy Trump towers but . . .
      7. Austin: SHALLs are hard to enforce.
      8. Lorraine: provide links.
      9. Austin: That works.
      10. Paul: does not allow us to meet accrediatioan.
      11. Lorraine: ES tried to get WGs to adopt consistent way to do minutes. People will do the work in the way most convenience.
      12. AndyS: Volunteers will do the path of least resistance.
      13. Paul: We are developing on our own laptops. There need to be SHALLs - a copy on HL7.
      14. Austin: Minutes not on an HL7 SIte are an issue.
    3. PSS
      1. Rick: Reception from CBCC is warm. Question - guidance/clarification on the work product. Currently product is a logical model. Looking for answer, or direction /guidance on the appropriate product for an IG.
      2. Lorraine: IG in section 5.
      3. Austin: IG usually applies to proeuct.
      4. Lorraine: New policy
      5. Rick: I am not an architect. I have reviewed, and having difficulty of the components necessary. Can I get a group to look at the SAIF-CD and provide insight.
      6. Lorraine: We had lots of conversations on how to be SAIF-CD compliant. I would participate.
      7. Zoran: I will offer support also.
  4. Next steps
    1. Tony will circulate a DOODLE pool for meetings after 3/13.
      1. DOODLE poll for meetings after March 13, 2016
    2. Rick will discuss the PSS with CBCC, Lorraine and Zoran volunteered to provide guidance.
  5. Adjournment
    1. Meeting adjourned at 3:05pm U.S. Eastern