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RIMBAA 201005 Minutes

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Monday Q1

Workgroup Date/Time Location Chair/Scribe
RIMBAA WG 2010-05-17,
09:00-10:30
Rio, Brazil C/S: Rene Spronk

Attendees (marked X)

At Name Affiliation Email Address
x Amnon Shabo IBM, IL shabo@il.ibm.com
x Lorraine Constable Constable Consulting, CA lorraine@constable.ca
x Mark Shafarman Shafarman Consulting, US mark.shafarman@earthlink.net
x Peter Hendler KP, US peter@hendler.net
x Rene Spronk Ringholm, NL rene.spronk@ringholm.com
x Rik Smithies NProgram Ltd, UK rik@nprogram.co.uk

Minutes

  • Call to order by Rene at 09:10
  • Approval of agenda for the week.
    • Approved by general consensus.
  • Administrative agenda items
    • Announcements
    • Approval of the minutes of the Out-of-cycle meeting on March 11 in Amsterdam, the minutes/attachments are available at http://www.hl7.org/library/committees/java/minutes/20100311_RIMBAA_minutes_attachments.zip
      • MOTION to approve the minutes of the March 11 RIMBAA meeting (Peter/Amnon, 4-0-1)
    • Review Draft agenda for the September meeting in Rome and the Cambridge WGM.
      • As a result of the review we'll meet during four quarters during the Cambridge WGM. Tuesday Q6, Friday Q1, and 2 other quarters (preferrably monday and thursday).
      • ACTION ITEM: (co-chairs) to request four quarters for RIMBAA meetings during the Cambridge WGM. Tuesday Q6, Friday Q1, and 2 other quarters (preferrably monday and thursday)
    • Discussion related to the creation of a third RIMBAA co-chair position. Our scope has increased which means such a position would be welcome.
      • MOTION to request the TSC to create a third RIMBAA co-chair position (Peter/Lorraine, 5-0-0)
      • ACTION ITEM: to communicate the request to the TSC to create a third RIMBAA co-chair position
      • Amnon Shabo (IBM) has volunteers to fill such a position as an appointed ad-interim co-chair, with elections to be held at the next WGM in Cambridge.
        • MOTION to appoint Amnon Shabo as the interim co-chair for the third co-chair position, on the assumption that the TSC will approve the third co-chair position (Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
        • ACTION ITEM: to communicate the appointment of Amnon as the interim co-chair to HQ
    • Create/update RIMBAA DMP.
      • Rene presents the highlights of the changes made with respect to the default/template DMP as created by the PIC WG. These issues include quorum (chair plus three members), proxy votes (we don't use them), notification (allow Wiki for agenda's, not just the website), and video/audio recordings of parts of RIMBAA meetings.
      • MOTION to approve the new RIMBAA DMP as presented (see http://www.hl7.org/library/committees/java/RIMBAA%20WG%20DMP%20v20.doc) (Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
      • ACTION ITEM: to inform HQ of our new DMP
    • Review/update RIMBAA mission&scope statement.
      • One of the main changes was to dropNotably to see how we should/could add serialization of in-memory objects to the scope.
      • MOTION to approve the new http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=RIMBAA_Mission_and_Charter&oldid=36639 (the URL of the version which was approved after discussion) on the wiki.(Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
      • ACTION ITEM: to inform HQ of our updated mission & charter
      • ACTION ITEM: for Rene to ask HQ to remove the Java SIG project from HL7 GForge and the project management tool (project #549).
    • Review/update RIMBAA Action Items.
      • The action items were reviewed; a new item related to updating the introductory text of the RIM ballot (to ensure the RIMs purpose isn't documented as being solely for interoperability was assigned to Peter Hendler.
  • Updates from the recent RIMBAA meeting in Amsterdam:
    • Rene very briefly points out that the highlights of that meeting can be found here:
      • Context Conduction (see [1])
      • MIF meta model browser (see [2])
  • Create a "Services with RIMBAA" project
    • Ann Wrightson (co-chair, SOA) suggested that we (SOA, RIMBAA) jointly create a specification of services to be used on top of a RIMBAA application. This may be abstract in nature, or based on a specific use-case. It would include a specification based on RIM-based semantic signifiers.
    • Discussion of whether we want to engage in such an effort; if so we should ask SOA for a joint meeting in Cambridge.
    • MOTION to engage in a joint project with SOA to develop a services specification for RIMBAA applications; the exact scope of the project will be jointly determined at a later stage. (Amnon/Peter, 5-0-0)
    • ACTION ITEM: to arrange a joint meeting with SOA should SOA also decide to accept this joint project
  • Work on the deliverable(s)
    • This agenda item wasn't discussed due to a lack of time.
  • MOTION to adjourn at 10:34 (Peter/Mark)

Appendix: summary of motions

The table below captures all substantial motions.

Motions
MOTION to approve the minutes of the March 11 RIMBAA meeting (Peter/Amnon, 4-0-1)
MOTION to request the TSC to create a third RIMBAA co-chair position (Peter/Lorraine, 5-0-0)
MOTION to appoint Amnon Shabo as the interim co-chair for the third co-chair position, on the assumption that the TSC will approve the third co-chair position (Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
MOTION to approve the new RIMBAA DMP as presented (see http://www.hl7.org/library/committees/java/RIMBAA%20WG%20DMP%20v20.doc) (Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
MOTION to approve the new http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=RIMBAA_Mission_and_Charter&oldid=36639 (the URL of the version which was approved after discussion) on the wiki.(Peter/Mark, 5-0-0)
MOTION to engage in a joint project with SOA to develop a services specification for RIMBAA applications; the exact scope of the project will be jointly determined at a later stage. (Amnon/Peter, 5-0-0)

Appendix: summary of action items

The table below captures all newly created action items.

Actions
ACTION ITEM: (co-chairs) to request four quarters for RIMBAA meetings during the Cambridge WGM. Tuesday Q6, Friday Q1, and 2 other quarters (preferrably Monday and Thursday)
ACTION ITEM: to communicate the request to the TSC to create a third RIMBAA co-chair position
ACTION ITEM: to communicate the appointment of Amnon as the interim co-chair to HQ
ACTION ITEM: to inform HQ of our updated mission & charter (see http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=RIMBAA_Mission_and_Charter&oldid=36639)
ACTION ITEM: to inform HQ of our new DMP
ACTION ITEM: for Rene to ask HQ to remove the Java SIG project from HL7 GForge and the project management tool (project #549).
ACTION ITEM: to arrange a joint meeting with SOA should SOA also decide to accept this joint project

Tuesday Q6

Workgroup Date/Time Location Chair/Scribe
RIMBAA WG 2010-05-18,
19:00-21:00
Rio, Brazil C/S: Rene Spronk

Attendees (marked X)

At Name Affiliation Email Address
x Amnon Shabo IBM, IL shabo@il.ibm.com
x Ann Wrightson NHS Wales, UK ann.wrightson@wales.nhs.uk
x Cecil Lynch Ontoreason, US clynch@ontroreason.com
x David Dean IBM, US davedean@us.ibm.com
x Grahame Grieve Kestral, AU grahameg@gmail.com
x Hugh Glover Blue Wave Informatics, UK hugh_glover@bluewaveinformatics.co.uk
x Joel Cajigas Medirec Inc., PR joel@medirecpr.com
  Lorraine Constable Constable Consulting, CA lorraine@constable.ca
  Mark Shafarman Shafarman Consulting, US mark.shafarman@earthlink.net
x Maqbool Hussain NUST, PK maqbool.hussain@seecs.edu.pk
x Pedro J. Rodriguez Medirec Inc., PR pedro@medlawpr.com
x Peter Hendler KP, US peter@hendler.net
x Rene Spronk Ringholm, NL rene.spronk@ringholm.com
  Rik Smithies NProgram Ltd, UK rik@nprogram.co.uk
x Tessa van Stijn NICTIZ, NL stijn@nictiz.nl
x Victor Chai NMOHH Singapore victor.chai@mohh.com.sg

Minutes

  • Rene calls to order at 19:05
  • Approval of the agenda
    • Approved by general consensus
  • Announcements
    • Yesterday we changed our mission statement to state that we will support the development, maintenance and support of RIMBAA toolkits by third parties. At the same time, reluctantly, because of a lack of resources to do so, we decided to no longer maintain or update the Java SIG reference implementation. The project has been removed from the HL7 Gforge site; the latest sources can be found in the repository at Regenstrief.
    • We'll meet tomorrow Q4 for Cecil's presentation on the use of OWL to represent SNOMED and the RIM.
    • Ann Wrightson: request a tentative agenda for the November 4 RIMBAA out-of-cycle meeting to be provided to HL7 UK prior to their meeting on July 13th.
  • RIM ITS implementation experiences (Grahame Grieve, discussion lead)
    • See also: http://www.ringholm.de/persist/20100311_RIMBAA_RIM_ITS_overview.pptx (presented during the March out-of-cycle meeting held in Amsterdam)
    • Grahame introduced the basics of the RIM ITS for those new to it.
    • Uses a message class to show differences between XML ITS and RIM ITS. We have 1 schema for all instances we'll ever need. (Updated schema will be sent out to the lists.). If you implement 1 or 2 interfaces, then XML ITS is better, if you do more than 5 then this is the way forward. 5 is the cutoff point. This is for RIM-centric folks - build a big stack (a library with growing functionality, layers of technology capability) and re-use it. This means moving away from the XML.
    • One big change was moving templateID. In RIM instances templateId is an element. This has disadvantages, to know what it is you have to start reading before you know what it is you're reading. Easier for XPATH, DOM, SAX.
    • Note: CDA R3 will probably use this ITS for the right-hand-side of the model
    • Clone names become templateIDs. Grahame: We'll still need those for processing. In principle one could process without Clonenames. To really make sense of a messages you need an implementation guide; processing a CCD without knowing the templateIDs is a real challenge. Needs speculative matching/parsing; expensive in terms of performance.
    • Peter: in Java SIG you needed MIF to map clone classes to the RIM. Grahame: not used anymore, can use straight JAXB to store it.
  • Presentations/discussion related to data type / RIMBAA issues:
    1. Grahame Grieve: Using R2 data types in your object model (a stable ISO standard), and R1 data types on the wire. Grahame: I convert between the forms in my parser and base all the other code off the proper object model R2 represents. You can also substitute R2 for R1 on the wire if you control both ends.
      • It's a fairly simple change to do it minimally, all you need is a mapping schema that aliases BN to BL, CE and CV to CD (an up to date list is at RIM_ITS_Specification#Appendix_.231) and in the specification.
      • Whole host of little issues. Big issues are:
        • ED. In R1 it can be either text or XML. Could be mixed content. Need to very carefully parse ED.
        • CD. No qualifiers anymore, now pre-coordinated. Need to be aware of the precoordinated syntax used by a coding system. Grahame re-introduced qualifier in his in-memory version of R2. Grahame never stores CD as CD, cut it up, store denormalized version. If it's a SNOMED code I porcess it and detect related codes to allow for very fast subsumption processing.
        • IVL way too many combinations of low/high/center. That flexibility reduced in R2. No more center attribute. Use of IV.any (a time within the interval) is used to map from R1 center.
        • EN.names changes the way to code name parts. E.g. qualifier for prefix/suffix.
        • GTS. In R1: GTS is a SET of TS. With operators. Same statements could be expressed in multiple ways. Nobody understood how this works. In R2 properly describe what we're doing. We defined a new model. We made all things explicit in the abstract definition. Introduce codes (e.g. BID / twice a day). Now a one to one relationship between definitional model and expression in XML. Functionality is the same in R1/R2, expression is different. With QSET there are a number of operations.
      • Equality and translation aren't touched upon - that's something for a future presentation.
      • Note: Grahame is willing to share the code (Delphi) - if asked to do so.
    2. Cecil Lynch: CD datatype implementation in a RIM based backend database used at MD Anderson Cancer Center.
      • Cecil shows the model used to deal with CD. Based on R2, but with support for R1 CV. codedValue a table with unique entries based on tuple (code, coding system, coding system version, value set ID, value set version). Displaynames are as defined by the coding system. No subsumption testing in database, would be done by terminology service.
  • Project Presentation, Maqbool Hussain (NUST School of Electrical Engineering and computer science, Pakistan). See http://www.ringholm.de/persist/20100518_RIMBAA_NUST_RSM_Mapper.pdf for a copy of his presentation.
    • These are more technical variants of papers presented during the IHIC conference. See www.ringholm.de/persist/20100514_IHIC_mapping_RIM_db_schema.pdf and www.ringholm.de/persist/20100515_IHIC_Interactive_Mapping_Tool.pdf
    • Subject is the (automatic) mapping of legacy/proprietary ER database schema to in-memory RIM(RMIM)-based objects (and vice versa). Using technology matrix terms: the AP-CO transition - Mapping AP (legacy ER databases) to CO (in memory R-MIM based RIM objects)
    • Legacy databases suffer from bad design, lacking documentation. Desire semi-automatic mapping RIM and clinical db schema; manual mapping is costly. Desire to generate code for mapping.
    • Loading RMIM definitions from XML schema. Load database schema. Schema mapper provides mapping - code is generated from its output.
    • Mappings semi-automatically generated, database column names are the basis for automatic mapping. Mappings can be added to mapping knowledge repository to allow re-use. This can learn as you do the manual mapping, you can also add and delete maps. It has a Community Mapping Registry where everyone can add their own mappings. They estimate that 30 to 40% of mapping will be automated with this knowledge base; remainder has to be done manually.
    • The mapping for any one legacy DB can be exported as an XML file. Using this exported file you can generate another set of RIM like java objects which have hibernate mappings to the legacy db. Then you can take the data from the original Java SIG RIM objects and transfer it to these custom objects and then on to the DB.
    • Two paths in the technology matrix: CS-AO-AP. second approach is CS-RO-AP.
    • Peter: Based on the idea that you van create a knowledge base based on patterns in naming in legacy database.
    • Ann: currently the learning process is additive, leads to garbage in the end. Need a cleaning method as well. She suggests that prior work in this field be taken into account, and points to work done by a italian research group lead by Nicola Guarino (see http://www.loa-cnr.it/).
    • Cecil: have you tried using not just column names, but the terminology used, to derive meaning from the codes used in a column. Regardless of column name one can derive meaning from it.
  • Work on the deliverable(s)
    • Rene briefly reminded attendees that a couple of issues (Schema based code generation, MIF based code generation) are considered to be relatively stable (please review), and introduced the issues covered by Object nets and object trees.
      • ACTION ITEM: Rene to ping Cecil for him to locate cross-industry articles related to the subject of merging object trees into object nets, and to querying of subsets of object nets.
  • MOTION to adjourn at 21:03

Wednesday Q4

Workgroup Date/Time Location Chair/Scribe
RIMBAA WG 2010-05-19,
15:30-17:00
Rio, Brazil C/S: Rene Spronk

Attendees (marked X/R)

At Name Affiliation Email Address
x Amnon Shabo IBM, IL shabo@il.ibm.com
x Ann Wrightson NHS Wales, UK ann.wrightson@wales.nhs.uk
x Cecil Lynch Ontoreason, US clynch@ontroreason.com
x David Dean IBM, US davedean@us.ibm.com
x Grahame Grieve Kestral, AU grahameg@gmail.com
x Hugh Glover Blue Wave Informatics, UK hugh_glover@bluewaveinformatics.co.uk
x Joel Cajigas Medirec Inc., PR joel@medirecpr.com
  Lorraine Constable Constable Consulting, CA lorraine@constable.ca
  Mark Shafarman Shafarman Consulting, US mark.shafarman@earthlink.net
x Maqbool Hussain NUST, PK maqbool.hussain@seecs.edu.pk
x Pedro J. Rodriguez Medirec Inc., PR pedro@medlawpr.com
x Peter Hendler KP, US peter@hendler.net
x Rene Spronk Ringholm, NL rene.spronk@ringholm.com
  Rik Smithies NProgram Ltd, UK rik@nprogram.co.uk
x Tessa van Stijn NICTIZ, NL stijn@nictiz.nl
x Victor Chai NMOHH Singapore victor.chai@mohh.com.sg

Minutes

  • Rene calls to order at 15:35
  • Approval of the agenda
  • Announcements
    • Yesterday the SOA WG approved (in principle) the new joint project with RIMBAA entitled "Services for RIMBAA". The scope statement will be finalized using e-mail exchanges and during SA conference calls. Ann Wrightson (SOA co-chair) will create a document outline.
  • Product/Tooling demonstrations
  • Cecil Lynch (Ontoreason LLC) on a RIMBAA implementation
    • Experience at MD Anderson Cancer Center in building a RIM based backend and an application to transformed their "structured documents" from their EMR into CDA and the transform to the backend RIM model.
      • It is based on an OWL ontology of the CDA model so that we can bind terminology to the CDA attributes using the inferencing from OWL. Expressing the v3 RIM in OWL. Cecil's company is fully based on OWL and RIM based artifacts and they have built the US CDC National Surveillance for Tuberculosis fully in OWL. That system has been in full production across the entire US since April of last year with no downtime and no errors.
    • Owl reasoning across large data sets is extremely computationally expensive and I would never consider expressing a medical record in owl. There must be some mistake here in the interpretation of comments I have made but I want to clear it up here so there is no confusion about what people expect at the demonstration.
      • All I had intended to demonstrate was the standard relational model for a very flexible rim-based database and how it is not necessary to express each class in the model. There are advantages in the flexibility to have an abstract model and in these days of high performance relational databases, the flexible model may outweigh the concerns about performance issues that can be overcome with hardware.
      • The other item I was going to demonstrate which is also within the rim-based model, is a way to efficiently handle post-coordinated concepts of the CD data type in a model.
      • These were the only things I had intended to show, however there seems to be some desire to see how the rim objects can be expressed in owl and how those might be used. In our own experience, we use ontology languages to represent the information models from HL 7 to organize the semantics and to build a profile over which to reason. We use both frames based ontology's where extensive metaclass objects are required and we also use OWL based ontology's. The purpose of expressing these in owl is to test the logic of the model and demonstration instances in the model so that we are sure that the reasoning is accurate. In either case of frames or owl, we take the ontology constructs of the model and express these in Jess facts.
      • Jess provides a multithreaded highly efficient rule engine which we use to reason over the facts expressed in the ontology. This provides an advantage over owl in that we can do both more efficient processing of rules and can also do backward chaining against a profile which cannot be done in owl. I will also be prepared to show how a reasoning platform based on an HL7v3 based ontology works and go over some ways that we have used and are using ontology models of version 3 artifacts for different kinds of reasoning applications.
      • Cecil will also talk about the 'table per class or per hierarchy' discussion, he feels it is the is the wrong approach. You really need to think about relational theory and the cost of joins. I don't think the issue of performance is really debatable with so much literature addressing it from Codd and others. This is partly why triple stores tend to outperform relational equivalents.
  • Work on the deliverable(s) - time permitting
    • This agenda item wasn't discussed due to a lack of time.
  • MOTION to adjourn at 17:03