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Architecture and Review Board Meeting Minutes

October 1, 2009

Back to Agenda-minutes

Agenda agreed upon October 1, 2009

  • Call to order
  • Approval of Agenda
  • Approval of Atlanta WGM Minutes

Approved by Affirmation

  • Review of ECCF (JK? ) not present.
  • Review of Technical editors comments
  • List of documents to review:
    • ECCFSept09-v2_edit.doc (Deck 4)
    • ECCFSept09-v5_edit.ppt (Deck 4)
    • HL7_Behavioral_Framework__SAEAF_Inclusion_033_Sept09_edit.doc (Deck 2)
    • HL7SAEAF_Overview_Snapshot_Sept09_edit.doc (Deck 5)
    • HL7SAEAFBehavioral_003_Sept09_edit.ppt (Deck 2)
    • HL7SAEAFGovernancev5_Sept09_edit.ppt (Deck 3)
    • IntroductionSept09-v2_edit.doc (Deck 1)
    • SAEAF_IntroductionSept09_edit.ppt (Deck 1)
    • SAEAF_Overview_Snapshot_Sept09_edit.ppt (Deck 5)
  • Decks 1 & 5 are changed, and comments on the rest.
  • Packaging of Governance materials
    • Granularity
    • Dummies Guide
  • Other business, and planning for next meeting


Name PresentWith AffiliationE-mail address
Aneja, Paul ? Guest    
Bond, Andy Yes ArB    
Curry, Jane ? ArB Health Information
Grieve, Grahame Yes ArB Kestral
Hufnagle, Steve ? Guest    
Julian, Tony Yes ArB Mayo
Koisch, John ? ArB
Loyd, Patrick Yes ARB Gordon point Informatics LTD.
Lynch, Cecil Yes ArB ontoreason
Mead, Charlie ? ArB Booz Allen
Nelson, Dale Yes Arb
Ocasio, Wendell ? ArB Agilex
Parker, Ron Yes ArB CA
Quinn, John ? ArB Health Level Seven,
Robertson, Scott Yes Guest Kaiser Permanente 
Shakir, Abdul-Malik Yes ArB Shakir
Smith, Karen ? Guest Technical
Thompson, Cliff ? Guest    

Ron G Parker says: Tony, can I give you the GTM so you can put up the agenda?

Anthony Julian says: yes

Karen Smith says: what's up now?

Ron G Parker says: Welcome Karen

Karen Smith says: hi there

Ron G Parker says: Just orienting the group the call

Ron G Parker says: We are covering agenda, and then will hand over for you to to take us through the materials

Karen Smith says: ok

Ron G Parker says: Karen we are skipping ECCF and going to your materials.

Karen Smith says: ok

Ron G Parker says: What karen will do is a structured walkthrough of the materials and solicit comments.

Karen Smith says: yes, I will begin with the Deck 5 powerpoint presentation. I made minor edits to it and I have one comment as you will see as soon as I get control of the screen.

Ron G Parker says: Okay great

Ron G Parker says: Tony can you give control now?

Anthony Julian says: Ron introduced Karen, who took over the GTM.

Karen Smith says: can you see my screen now?

Anthony Julian says: Yes

Ron G Parker says: Okay, we can see your screen now

Karen Smith says: Do you have any comments on the Deck 5 slides? I have one question. Should the Informational Framework be added to the list of core components?

Ron G Parker says: comment from Cecil

Ron G Parker says: The Information Framework is the RIM, so no

Karen Smith says: ok, do you have any more comments on these slides?

Ron G Parker says: Andy - it needs to include a broader architectural perspective than the RIM

Karen Smith says: that is the IF right?

Anthony Julian says: ron: Where would we get the additional from: Andy, enterprise context such as meta-data

Ron G Parker says: Andy would like to see some work done on moving up to Enterpreise context on metadata and information principles and management of information in an enterprise context

Ron G Parker says: Cecil: feels this is out of scope\

Karen Smith says: I don't think these comments apply to the slides

Ron G Parker says: True Karen, but bear with us for a sec

Karen Smith says: ok

Ron G Parker says: Cecil is elaborating

Anthony Julian says: Cecil:Meta data is described by other domains, such as CMETs which structure that. HL7 is context rich. The one area where I would agree is in the conceptual layer.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Bridging conceptual to RIM attributes.

Anthony Julian says: Andy: that conversation is missing. It would be useful not to create new information about the information, but to capture it. So the SAEAF would get information from that perspective.

Anthony Julian says: ron: For karens perspective, there is a larger issue. When I imagine in the CA architecture using SAEAF. In my context, the SAEAF will be used to define how the architecture is done.

Cecil Lynch says: How would we capture that?

Karen Smith says: not sure

Karen Smith says: can someone write up a summary for me, and would that fit into the Intro topic?

Ron G Parker says: Yes, we can provide

Anthony Julian says: Ron: Keep working down through the stack. Part of the capture may come from the ALpha projects.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: we need to write that down.

Ron G Parker says: Okay, Karen, keep going

Cecil Lynch says: I think that Andy will need to take the lead on that.

Karen Smith says: Do you have any more comments on the Deck 5 slides? If not, I will move on to the Deck 5 Word doc.

Cecil Lynch says: As I see it we have the framework in the matrix.

Anthony Julian says: Ron: How do you feel about the lead, andy?

Anthony Julian says: Andy: yes, I can do that

Anthony Julian says: Ron: Not heavy, but surely informative.

Karen Smith says: Andy, if there's anything that you want me to add to the SAEAF materials, please send me the materials.

Karen Smith says: OK, I now have the executive overview. Do you have any comments? I will page through the document.

Ron G Parker says: Hang on Karen... adding Andy to the Skype channel

      • Cecil Lynch added Andy Bond to this chat

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: you are FAST!

Ron G Parker says: So karen, what's next?

Karen Smith says: Welcome, Andy. I have the executive overview on my screen. I had been asking if I should add the IF framework to the list of the core components.

Karen Smith says: I assume from the previous discussion that I should not add the IF to the list for now.

Anthony Julian says: Correct- pending material from andy.

Andy Bond says: let's see how it is perceived

Andy Bond says: before adding officially

Karen Smith says: ok I will leave IF off for now until it is ready. Now going to Deck 1 powerpoint

Cecil Lynch says: I am on the skype channel

AbdulMalik Shakir says: I am on both skype and gotomeeting

Karen Smith says: I spent a lot of time working with Jane while revising the Deck 1 PPT slides to make them more understandable. I added explanatory notes. I will now page through the slides. Let me know if you have any comments on these slides.

Anthony Julian says: Karen is reviewing Deck 1:

Karen Smith says: if you have a comment about a particular slide, please give me the slide number so that I can find it (the context)

Ron G Parker says: Okay

Karen Smith says: can you see the slides ok?

Ron G Parker says: Let's pause on each slide

Karen Smith says: ok

Ron G Parker says: You probably can put your skype over to one side if that works for you

Karen Smith says: I'm starting with page 8 as the previous pages simply listed the course content

Ron G Parker says: Okay, proceed to next slide

Karen Smith says: slide 9

Cecil Lynch says: Just under the prerequisites we might also want to mention knowledge of some other formal process such as RM ODP

Karen Smith says: ok

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Do you have a list of the others?

Karen Smith says: slide 10

Anthony Julian says: other formal processes?

Ron G Parker says: Next slide Karen

Karen Smith says: slide 11

Cecil Lynch says: Looks good to me

Ron G Parker says: Looks good

Karen Smith says: 12

Ron G Parker says: Can we be more concise?

Karen Smith says: what happened at the Sept Atlanta mtg

Ron G Parker says: Is all of this history still needed?

Anthony Julian says: I think it needs to be in the overall document, but minimixed in the final output.

Karen Smith says: agree, I could cut down on all the detail in the slide

Ron G Parker says: Good

Karen Smith says: did something significant happen at the SEpt WGM mtg?

Anthony Julian says: 5:21:54 Dale

Ron G Parker says: an awful lot

Ron G Parker says: Breakthrough with Lab... there seemed increased understanding of the utility.

Anthony Julian says: dale: ITS wg has agreed to go forward with ITS as an ALPHA SAEAF project

Karen Smith says: what utility is that

Cecil Lynch says: There was a huge change in the ability to bring on this CDA

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: CDA did a lot of work on the future of SD.

Ron G Parker says: The utility of SAEAF to other groups.

Cecil Lynch says: I think we were able to convince Keith Booneand who is one of the cochairs that there was real value in SAEAF.

Karen Smith says: sounds good

Anthony Julian says: Ron: CDA will be an alpha. How do we factor for all of this artifacts - looking to ARB for guidance.

Karen Smith says: now on slide 13

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: Selection of normative content does not have consistancy.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: I agree. Discussion with Charlie McCay about forcing requirement for DAM on all new projects - to gain that consistency. You have to document the use cases. Then you can standardize and pull artifacts from other areas.

Ron G Parker says: Karen: Cecil has some excellent points that would be useful in this deck (along the lines of what Tony is documenting here)

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Different from how CDA works now. Use cases get rushed through. I want Charlie to say from the TSC that it be required along with scope statement. Keith Boone suggested that it be required before ballot.

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: DAM is not mapped to CDAr3 or Clinical Statements. This is the core of consistency issues.

Ron G Parker says: Karen, don't worry about surrounding narrative, as we document minutes and work with you on edits, we can fill that out.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: A first step. We have a lot of things to make this work - we need to fill in the conceptual layer, get everyone on the same page.

Anthony Julian says: Cliff - Information should show how tools relate.

Karen Smith says: okay, that helps, we can talk with Cecil and Tony offline about what I need to add to Deck 1 slides.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: TSC asked us to decide if DAM were normative or informative - we did not have a good definition of a DAM. We dont have a consistent way to produce it.

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: How do you see DAM contributing to the CDAR3.

Ron G Parker says: Very good discussion happening now...

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Big discussion on SD list about neonatal cda. Mead asked a question about ICSR, and the representation of O2Sat- observation, pharmacy, ???

Ron G Parker says: Around the degree of rigour we need to require the Alpha projects to do.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: we need a DAM to know the scope - otherwise there is inconcistency about developing the next artifact.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Formal concept mapping gets you a consisten concept map. It gets very quickly seen how the logic breaks down if you dont have the classes and relationships.

Ron G Parker says: Yep, hang on Karen, I will move the discussion along in a moment

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: If I am doing CDA guide for discharge summary. We have DAM discussions, with stakeholders. When we publish, the DAM does not capture the essence of the work. It is much wider in scope than and HL7 DAM.

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: Requirements, terminology, structures, it is a lot bigger.

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: If yhou take a look at the ones done, tuberculosis, bridge, you are looking at something that is all over the board about what a DAM is. Mead, AMS,and Cecil are working on the definition.

Ron G Parker says: I think there is agreement that the Sept WGM makes it clear we need a much better definition of the Domain Analysis Model and the application of that in resolving requirements for the domain experts...

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Make sure you are capturing what the expert is telling you, then you go to the mapping to the RIM. We are trying to do that in the wrong layer.

Karen Smith says: FYI, slides 59 and 60 talk about DAM,

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Bridge needs to be broken apart - implementation artifacts were defined, even though it is not run-time, it just looks like it.

Karen Smith says: I suppose the new definition for DAM could go into one of those slides or a new one afterwards

Ron G Parker says: Okay we are moving on.

Ron G Parker says: karen, next slide is?

Karen Smith says: slide 14 which talks about the jump start deliverables

Anthony Julian says: AMS: this is interesting, but we need to provide input to Karen.

Karen Smith says: anything on slide 14?

Anthony Julian says: AMS: If we add information to the previous, we need it here.

Ron G Parker says: next slide karen?

Karen Smith says: 15 now

Karen Smith says: I think that DAM could be added to the bulleted list?

Anthony Julian says: RP: Yes

Ron G Parker says: Yep, I think so

Karen Smith says: 16 now

Ron G Parker says: Back to 15 please Karen?

Anthony Julian says: Back to 15 please

Ron G Parker says: AMS has a comment

Karen Smith says: ok

Anthony Julian says: AMS: DAM in reuse of existing artifacts? I dont think of DAMS in the same flavor there

Anthony Julian says: AMS: We need to have a DAM discussion!

Ron G Parker says: slide 16 please

Karen Smith says: 16

Cecil Lynch says: Not really

Ron G Parker says: Okay... Cecil?

Anthony Julian says: Tony: Explanation of Unified field theory is needed.

Karen Smith says: yes, a definition of Unified field theory will be very useful for the slides

Karen Smith says: Intro

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: We are really saying we are trying to provide a service oriented approach, I think SAEAF is a component of a Services oriented architecture.

Grahame Grieve says: SAEAF is a precondition for a well designed SOA

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: If you narrowly define SOA as an implementation.

Anthony Julian says: RP: We have a methodology and tools to use SOA principles to document from requirements to specifications. Allows us to use SOA material to document the dynamic models/

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: If we add Grahames comment after service oriented architecture:

Anthony Julian says: Grahame: Thank you.

Karen Smith says: ok slide 17 now -- this one talks about Sept 2008 in detail

Karen Smith says: do we still need this slide?

Anthony Julian says: RP: do we need this history in the deck?

Ron G Parker says: karen, we have 15 mins remaining, and we may not finish this deck

Ron G Parker says: would be better if we consolidate comments on the decks and material and provide them to Karen, who can then use this venue for clarification

Anthony Julian says: RP: we need to consolidate the comments and provide for karen, let here ask if she need clarification

Anthony Julian says: RP: NP:

Karen Smith says: I also have a lot of questions about the Word doc in Deck 1. How about if we go to the Word doc now and people could email me their comments. Yes, I agree,

Karen Smith says: as this method is taking a long time.

Ron G Parker says: let's do that

Anthony Julian says: It always does!

Karen Smith says: okay, let me go to Word doc in Deck 1 now

Anthony Julian says: RP: Before the next call review the material for the next call.

Karen Smith says: Folks, if you have any comments on Deck 1, please email them to Tony Julian or to me

Anthony Julian says: (beer)

Karen Smith says: getting hungry?

Anthony Julian says: (d)

Ron G Parker says: Agree with KGS3

Karen Smith says: I'm on section 1.3 now. Any comments on this section? If not, I'll move on to the next section.

Anthony Julian says: Karen: We cannot see the comment

Ron G Parker says: Next section please

Karen Smith says: can you see it now

Karen Smith says: I just reorganized some material

Anthony Julian says: GOt it!

Ron G Parker says: Pause here

Karen Smith says: I've moved to the next comment

Karen Smith says: section 3.1

Anthony Julian says: RP: Comment on CSI between trading partners?

Karen Smith says: how do the CSI trading partners relate to WI?

Anthony Julian says: RP: You cannot achieve WI without knowing the CSI between partners.

Karen Smith says: ok thanks

Karen Smith says: 4.1.2 - I reworded this sentence as it was awkward

Karen Smith says: if you have a comment on a specific section, let me know and I'll go there

Anthony Julian says: AMS: Enabling on the CSI comment.

Karen Smith says: back to cSI comment

Anthony Julian says: Cecil:

to pick it up just reading it.

Karen Smith says: 4.1.2 now

Ron G Parker says: K, hang on Karen...

Karen Smith says: ok

Anthony Julian says: RP: Is this a fair comment?

Anthony Julian says: AMS it explains why it isnt, but shows that there needs to be one.

Anthony Julian says: RP: Clear from the CDA meeting that there is confusion.

Anthony Julian says: AMS: I am not sure all of us working on SAEAF have the save vision.

Karen Smith says: should SAEAF also include a static framework

Anthony Julian says: RP: Hope artifacts coming from alpha will illustrate where the work needs to be done.

Anthony Julian says: RP: Will take a crack, and let it surface.

Andy Bond says: information framework should encompass the static requirement

Anthony Julian says: Cecil: Lot of stuff already coming out.

Cecil Lynch says: Agrre with Andy.

Karen Smith says: I wonder if this paragraph is now irrelevant?

Anthony Julian says: RP: We need to revisit this assumption.

Ron G Parker says: I think we need to say something.... a

Anthony Julian says: AMS: along the lines of - we have not worked on it at this point, but it will need to be documented to make the saeaf complete.

Anthony Julian says: AB: orchestration needs to bring it together. Some will come from the alpha experience, to give us guidance.

Cecil Lynch says: SO we have some of this documented in the HDF.

Anthony Julian says: AB: we dont necessarily need something new, we need to understand.

Cecil Lynch says: This should be our starting point for aligning these with the PIM

Anthony Julian says: RP: What we were trying to provide is a framework for engaging with the material. Not sure what to provide.

Anthony Julian says: RP: We need to revisit the assumption in the document.

Anthony Julian says: (o)

Karen Smith says: any comments on 5.3

Ron G Parker says: Karen, we will need to stop with comment 10

Karen Smith says: okay

Karen Smith says: Quick note -- I received comments from Charlie and Cliff on Decks 2, 3, and 4.

Anthony Julian says: Karen: I have just received other comments, which i have not forwarded.

Karen Smith says: great

Ron G Parker says: Let's do a debrief on today's session, on what worked and what may need to be done differently.

Ron G Parker says: Debrief with Karen, tony and myself

Karen Smith says: yes, it worked, but seemed rather slow and inefficient.

Karen Smith says: Maybe the reviewers could say I have a comment on such and such a page or slide and I would go there, instead of paging through every slide or page.

Anthony Julian says: RP: we need to work on more than one agenda item on a call. People will have to review. We may have to put together a subgroup.

Karen Smith says: sounds like a good idea

Anthony Julian says: AMS: Karens comments with questions worked well. WOuld have worked better if we had things to bring to here attention.

Karen Smith says: yeah

Anthony Julian says: AMS: If she could find a way to now show the skype channel.

Anthony Julian says: RP: We will work on that. I presume we will revisit the agenda for the next call. We may take some of the documents offline.

Cecil Lynch says: Thanks all

Anthony Julian says: RP: Thanks for attending

Karen Smith says: please email

Karen Smith says: Tony or me any comments that you have

Anthony Julian says: RP: We are not going to SanFrancisco. We are going to need to engage in material.

Karen Smith says: thanks all and for your patience as we try out this new review procedure

Ron G Parker says: Thanks Karen

Karen Smith says: bye everyone

Ron G Parker says: bye

Anthony Julian says: Bye Karen!

Anthony Julian says: RP: Identify criteria for needing, and how can we work the logistics.

Karen Smith says: I really liked the email comments that I received so far.

Karen Smith says: I also got some useful comments on the comments that I entered in various PPT slides.

Karen Smith says: agree

Anthony Julian says: RP: Will talk to Charlie about the next agenda.

Karen Smith says: ok

Karen Smith says: when is the next meeting, as I'm sure you guys need to discuss other subjects as well

Karen Smith says: Part of my problem is that I basically n eed to be finished with the editing by Oct 19-30 so that I can move on to the DITA project.

Karen Smith says: wish I had more time

Grahame Grieve says: bye all

Karen Smith says: bye everyone

Ron G Parker says: Thanks everyone.

Anthony Julian says: TJ: Wed Q4 in January there will be a TSC meeting.

Anthony Julian says: tj for the alpha rollout

Cliff Thompson says: Karen and Tony, what docs should I review in particular?

Anthony Julian says: Cliff - You have done a number. Karen?

Karen Smith says: Review the docs in Deck 1

Karen Smith says: I'm waiting for Charlie, Jane, and John K to revise their docs in Decks 2, 3, and 4 before I do more editing work on them. I already sent them my comments.

Cliff Thompson says: OK I'll do the word doc and the ppt for deck 1 -- I'll also go thru the other docs in detail

Cliff Thompson says: by docs i meant Word docs

Karen Smith says: yes

Karen Smith says: thanks so much, Cliff, really appreciate it

Anthony Julian says: My Email will say I am out-of-office next week, but I will be surreptitously checking e-mail - and plan to join the call thursday.

Cliff Thompson says: are the most current docs in SVN?

Anthony Julian says: Ron: If you want to set something up, try to let me know a couple of days in advance so I can work it into the schedule.

Karen Smith says: yes, but I will need to check in the Deck 1 Word doc with the tracking changes cleaned up a bit.

Cliff Thompson says: thanks i look for it on Friday or later

Karen Smith says: Ok, I just checked it in now

Karen Smith says: anything else or bye? Thanks all, especially Ron and Cliff

Karen Smith says: and Tony for keeping me in the coversational loop. I learned a lot of new ArB stuff today (lol)

Anthony Julian says: So did we all. I will capture this conversation, and include it in the minutes which I will post on the wiki.

Karen Smith says: thanks a lot

Cliff Thompson says: nothing else -- thanks Adjourned at 6:11 U.S. CDT.