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Difference between revisions of "20110413 SAIF AP ConCall"

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−
=SAIF Pilot Coordination Project – 2011-04-13 Meeting=
+
=SAIF Architecture Program – 2011-04-13 Meeting=
 
Return to [[SAIF_Architecture_Program|SAIF Architecture Program Wiki Home Page]]<br\>
 
Return to [[SAIF_Architecture_Program|SAIF Architecture Program Wiki Home Page]]<br\>
 
Return to [http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=SAIF_Architecture_Program_Meeting_Minutes_and_Agendas SAIF AP Meeting Minutes and Agendas]
 
Return to [http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=SAIF_Architecture_Program_Meeting_Minutes_and_Agendas SAIF AP Meeting Minutes and Agendas]
  
 +
===Meeting Logistics===
 +
*Dates: Weekly on Wednesdays
 +
*Time: 10:00 - 11:00 Eastern
 +
*Phone Number: +1 (770) 657 9270
 +
*Participant Passcode: 124466
 +
*Web Coordinates: https://www2.gotomeeting.com/join/768017802 Meeting ID: 768-017-802
  
 
===Agenda===
 
===Agenda===
−
#Discuss necessary coordination items for the Services’ SAIF Pilot Coordination project
+
#Role Call
 +
#Agenda Review
 +
#Enterprise Architect (EA) update (John Quinn) (Tracker 1865)
 +
#Petition to accept CDA R3 into the SAIF Architecture Program
 +
#Review SAIF & Sound from Project Services (Rick Haddorff)
 +
#Discuss Communication Plan (Tracker 1866)
 +
#Discuss Recruiting for Project Leads
 +
##Tracker 1864 - Attend an INM call; find a Project Lead for the INM Wrapper Project #619
 +
#Quality Plan PSS Revisions (Gregg Seppala) (Tracker 1878)
 +
#Action item review (see below)
 +
#Next steps
 +
 
 +
===Action Items to Review===
 +
'''1850:''' ID List of Tools that the Composite Order Project Need<br\>
 +
Patrick identified Collab Net. this week. Any others? Next step for Collab Net?
 +
<br\><br\>
 +
 
 +
'''1867: '''Determine what XML editor should be used for our work.<br\>
 +
Team, When should we begin work on this action item?
 +
<br\><br\>
 +
'''1863: '''Attend Strruc Doc’s CDA R3 call<br\>
 +
'''1861: ''''Have Austin or Patrick join the EHR call (Tuesdays 2:30-4pm) and SOA call, Mondays at 4pm<br\>
 +
FYI: Patrick and Austin attended the EHR call on Tuesday; will join SOA next week.<br\>
 +
Austin's update from the EHR call: They have already been doing work to align with SAIF so I invited them to join one of our upcoming calls to present on that subject. They are tentatively scheduled for the 4/27 call (I've added that to the agenda for that day). Steve Hufnagle is probably going to the be presenter. I encouraged them to start participating in the SAIF AP calls, join the list server and participate in the MNM Artifact definition calls. I also indicated we need to figure out how EHR FM and the OO Composite order project need to work together. At least the dialog has been started.
 +
<br\><br\>
 +
'''1851: '''Logo Ideas for the SAIF AP<br\>
 +
FYI: Two have been submitted and uploaded to SAIF AP's GForge Doc tab
 +
<br\><br\>
 +
 
 +
[http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/project/saif-arch-pgm/tracker/?action=&br_trackerssort_by=tracker.DESCRIPTION&br_trackerssort_order=asc Link to the Complete List of Action Items/Issues/Risks (GForge)]
  
 
===Meeting Attendees===
 
===Meeting Attendees===
Line 38: Line 73:
 
|X|| Austin Kreisler
 
|X|| Austin Kreisler
 
|colspan="2"| TSC Chair
 
|colspan="2"| TSC Chair
 +
|-
 +
| || Brian Pech
 +
|colspan="2"| Interested Participant
 
|-
 
|-
 
|X|| David Hamill
 
|X|| David Hamill
 
|colspan="2"| HL7 HQ / Program Manager
 
|colspan="2"| HL7 HQ / Program Manager
 +
|-
 +
||| Ed Tripp
 +
|colspan="2"| Domain Experts SD \ TSC
 +
|-
 +
|X|| Gregg Seppala
 +
|colspan="2"| Product Quality Plan Project
 +
|-
 +
| || Jane Curry
 +
|colspan="2"| Tooling
 +
|-
 +
|X|| Jim McClay
 +
|colspan="2"| Emergency Care
 +
|-
 +
| || John Quinn
 +
|colspan="2"| HL7 CTO
 +
|-
 +
|X|| Lloyd McKenzie
 +
|colspan="2"| MnM Work Group / SAIF Implementation Guide Pjt
 +
|-
 +
| || Lorraine Constable
 +
|colspan="2"| Composite Order Pjt \ OO Behavioral Framework Pjt
 +
|-
 +
|X|| Lynn Laakso
 +
|colspan="2"| HL7 HQ / TSC Project Manager
 
|-
 
|-
 
|X|| Patrick Loyd
 
|X|| Patrick Loyd
Line 47: Line 109:
 
|X|| Rick Haddorff
 
|X|| Rick Haddorff
 
|colspan="2"| Project Services WG / SAIF Pilot Coordination Pjt
 
|colspan="2"| Project Services WG / SAIF Pilot Coordination Pjt
 +
|-
 +
| || Robert Lario
 +
|colspan="2"| Object Management
 +
|-
 +
| || Steve Hufnagel
 +
|colspan="2"| ArB / SAIF Book Project / SOA
 +
|-
 +
| || Wendy Huang
 +
|colspan="2"| Implementation Conformance WG
 
|-
 
|-
 
|colspan="4" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|
 
|colspan="4" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|
Line 74: Line 145:
 
'''Minutes/Conclusions Reached:'''<br/>
 
'''Minutes/Conclusions Reached:'''<br/>
  
−
'''Enterprise Architect (EA) update (John Quinn) (Tracker 1865) '''<br/>
+
'''Enterprise Architect (EA) update (John Quinn) (Tracker 1865)  
−
Patrick: Has a CD copy of it, and Lorraine needs a copy, but we don’t have it any other way of getting Lorraine Constable EA software
+
*Patrick: Has a CD copy of it, and Lorraine needs a copy, but we don’t have it any other way of getting Lorraine Constable EA software
−
Patrick indicated progress is inhibited right now and need access to EA.
+
*Patrick indicated progress is inhibited right now and need access to EA.
 +
 
 +
'''Discuss Recruiting for Project Leads<br\>
 +
'''Tracker 1864 - Attend an INM call; find a Project Lead for the INM Wrapper Project #619
 +
*Patrick:  Key to success is to obtain resources.
 +
*For the pilot, we should find a couple of SOA resources and a couple of Struc Doc resources.
 +
*SOA facilitators, Services facilitators and Documents facilitators are the needed roles.
 +
*After the pilot, an big issue is that each group will need Services faclitators.
 +
*Patrick is not available to run the INM Wrapper project
 +
*INM is going to solicit for a project lead.
 +
*One way to successfully recruit resources, is to create a communication plan.
 +
 
 +
*Austin:  Create a Help Wanted section on the SAIF AP Wiki. 
 +
*This can be done prior to PIC getting their work going on their effort of matching HL7 members with ‘needs and availability/expierience’ .
 +
 +
'''Discuss Communication Plan (Tracker 1866)
 +
*The communication plan should address how the pilot is progressing, how the IG is progressing, indicate “when will this affect me?”, indicate WIIFM (what’s in it for me), and when it will be available for projects to be SAIF branded.
 +
*Explain how SAIF should be implemented with existing standards.
 +
*First Task:  Create an outline for a Communication Plan.
 +
*Austin:  To start, he will talk up the SAIF AP at May 2011 WGM in Orlando.  Will talk about it at Saturday’s TSC, present to Board on Tuesday, present at General Session, Wed Q4 SAIF AP meeting.
 +
 
 +
'''Review SAIF & Sound from Project Services (Rick Haddorff)
 +
*Rick reviewed Project #676 at a high level (http://www.hl7.org/special/Committees/projman/searchableProjectIndex.cfm?action=edit&ProjectNumber=676)
 +
*Progress to date:
 +
*Developed a PowerPoint discussion issues of moving from current artifacts to SAIF artifacts, and how they integrate in the HL7 Ballot Cycles.
 +
*Created a White Paper based on the PowerPoint to provide more detail.  The White Paper is still under review.  Austin recommended the SAIF AP team be part of the review, as well as MnM if they want to.
 +
*The SAIF AP Communication Plan could use the PowerPoint and/or the White Paper if it chose to.
 +
*Rick felt the White Paper is more useful as a Communication tool rather than an Implementation Guide.
 +
*Gregg:  The White Paper seems to focus on new standards.  How should SAIF be implemented with existing standards?
 +
 
 +
'''Petition to accept CDA R3 (Project 477) into the SAIF Architecture Program
 +
*Struc Docs is proposing this be done.
 +
*SD WG is busy with meaningful use impacts to CDA R2, so SD WG has time to work on CDA R3.
 +
*How should the SAIF AP team handle these types of petitions?
 +
*Patrick:  Keep the petition process simple, however be cognizant of the resource needs (various facilitators and modelers).
 +
 
 +
'''Quality Plan PSS Revisions (Gregg Seppala) (Tracker 1878)
 +
*Gregg summarized the changes that the scope now focuses on the Quality Plan is SAIF AP specific.
 +
*Gregg will modify Quality Plan PSS and resubmit it to the TSC for review/approval
  
−
'''Discuss Recruiting for Project Leads '''<br/>
 
−
'''Tracker 1864 - Attend an INM call; find a Project Lead for the INM Wrapper Project #619 '''<br/>
 
−
Patrick:  Key to success is to obtain resources.<br/>
 
−
For the pilot, we should find a couple of SOA resources and a couple of Struc Doc resources.<br/>
 
−
SOA facilitators, Services facilitators and Documents facilitators are the needed roles.<br/>
 
−
After the pilot, an big issue is that each group will need Services faclitators.<br/>
 
−
Patrick is not available to run the INM Wrapper project<br/>
 
−
INM is going to solicit for a project lead.<br/>
 
−
One way to successfully recruit resources, is to create a communication plan.<br/>
 
−
<br/>
 
−
Austin:  Create a Help Wanted section on the SAIF AP Wiki.  <br/>
 
−
This can be done prior to PIC getting their work going on their effort of matching HL7 members with ‘needs and availability/expierience’ . <br/>
 
−
<br/>
 
−
'''Discuss Communication Plan (Tracker 1866) '''<br/>
 
−
The communication plan should address how the pilot is progressing, how the IG is progressing, indicate “when will this affect me?”, indicate WIIFM (what’s in it for me), and when it will be available for projects to be SAIF branded.<br/>
 
−
Explain how SAIF should be implemented with existing standards.<br/>
 
−
First Task:  Create an outline for a Communication Plan.<br/>
 
−
Austin:  To start, he will talk up the SAIF AP at May 2011 WGM in Orlando.  Will talk about it at Saturday’s TSC, present to Board on Tuesday, present at General Session, Wed Q4 SAIF AP meeting.<br/>
 
−
<br/>
 
−
'''Review SAIF & Sound from Project Services (Rick Haddorff) '''<br/>
 
−
Rick reviewed Project #676 at a high level (http://www.hl7.org/special/Committees/projman/searchableProjectIndex.cfm?action=edit&ProjectNumber=676)<br/>
 
−
Progress to date:<br/>
 
−
Developed a PowerPoint discussion issues of moving from current artifacts to SAIF artifacts, and how they integrate in the HL7 Ballot Cycles.
 
−
Created a White Paper based on the PowerPoint to provide more detail.  The White Paper is still under review.  Austin recommended the SAIF AP team be part of the review, as well as MnM if they want to.<br/>
 
−
The SAIF AP Communication Plan could use the PowerPoint and/or the White Paper if it chose to.<br/>
 
−
Rick felt the White Paper is more useful as a Communication tool rather than an Implementation Guide.<br/>
 
−
Gregg:  The White Paper seems to focus on new standards.  How should SAIF be implemented with existing standards?<br/>
 
−
<br/>
 
−
'''Petition to accept CDA R3 (Project 477) into the SAIF Architecture Program '''<br/>
 
−
Struc Docs is proposing this be done.<br/>
 
−
SD WG is busy with meaningful use impacts to CDA R2, so SD WG has time to work on CDA R3.<br/>
 
−
How should the SAIF AP team handle these types of petitions?<br/>
 
−
Patrick:  Keep the petition process simple, however be cognizant of the resource needs (various facilitators and modelers).<br/>
 
−
<br/>
 
−
'''Quality Plan PSS Revisions (Gregg Seppala) (Tracker 1878) '''<br/>
 
−
Gregg summarized the changes that the scope now focuses on the Quality Plan is SAIF AP specific.<br/>
 
−
Gregg will modify Quality Plan PSS and resubmit it to the TSC for review/approval<br/>
 
−
<br/><br/>
 
 
Gforge Accounts can be requested via:  
 
Gforge Accounts can be requested via:  
 
http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/account/?action=UserAdd
 
http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/account/?action=UserAdd
−
<br/><br/>
+
 
 +
 
 +
'''1850:''' ID List of Tools that the Composite Order Project Need<br\>
 +
Patrick identified Collab Net. this week. Any others? Next step for Collab Net? <br\>
 +
Collab Net is freeware, and Patrick, Lorraine can access it.<br\>
 +
However, in the future, if we have 50 or 100 people using it, should we form a relationship with Collab Net?  Ask John Quinn for his input on this.
 +
<br\><br\>
 +
'''1867:''' Determine what XML editor should be used for our work. <br\>
 +
Team, When should we begin work on this action item?<br\>
 +
Patrick:  When MnM decides what the schemas will look like, that’s when we need it.  Until then, we’ll manually create schemas.<br\>
 +
This item will require coordination with MnM and Tooling.<br\>
 +
Lloyd:  Estimates that we should discuss this item around July.<br\>
 +
The PS WG’s coordination project needs to coordinate this effort.<br\>
 +
 
 
''Adjourned 10:58 AM Eastern Time
 
''Adjourned 10:58 AM Eastern Time
  
Line 125: Line 209:
 
<!-- <br/> carriage break to copy  ******-->
 
<!-- <br/> carriage break to copy  ******-->
  
−
Rick – Modify Pilot Coordination project 764 to include CDA R3.<br/>
 
−
We should discuss this at the next Project Services Meeting.  Also, does this need change need to go through SD and TSC review/approval?  Personally, I don’t think so.
 
  
−
Rick – Add the SAIF AP Category to the Pilot Coordination Wiki Page<br/>
+
Dave – Follow up with JQuinn and Wilfred to get EA to Lorraine.<br/>
 +
Dave – Add an Issue to GForge that after the pilot, a big issue is that each group will need Services facilitators.<br/>
 +
Dave – Create action item for Austin to create the Help Wanted page on the SAIF AP Wiki.  Due Date: Before Orlando<br/>
 +
Rick – Send the White Paper the SAIF AP for their review.<br/>
 +
Dave – Add an Action Item to review the SAIF and Sound White paper when Project Services completes the White Paper.  May be part of Governance discussion in Orlando.  Add a SAIF and Sound agenda item for 5/4 conference call.<br/>
 +
Dave – Change Project 477 CDA R3 to be under SAIF AP, and CDA R3’s wiki page link to SAIF AP page<br/>
 +
Gregg – Modify Quality Plan PSS and resubmit it to the TSC for review/approval.<br/>
 +
 
 +
Dave – Add the following Action Items:<br/>
 +
*Assuming the SAIF AP accepts the CDA R3 project onboard tomorrow, we've already surfaced a new item that needs coordination between CDA R3 and Security/CBCC around Confidentiality codes. <br/>
 +
<br/>
 +
*CBCC and Security need to provide feedback on the CDA R3 project on use of confidentiality in CDA R3. This may very well be related to the Security Cookbook discussion that we've scheduled for the 4/20 call.<br/>
 +
<br/>
 +
===Next Meeting / Preliminary Agenda Items ===
 +
<!-- <br/> carriage break to copy  ******-->
  
−
Dave/Rick - add an action item to create initial Pilot Coordination Project Plan? <br/>
+
Coordinate message for communicating the SAIF AP in Orlando.  – Dave to add to the agenda a week or two before Orlando (May 4th call)

Latest revision as of 15:04, 19 April 2011

SAIF Architecture Program – 2011-04-13 Meeting

Return to SAIF Architecture Program Wiki Home Page<br\> Return to SAIF AP Meeting Minutes and Agendas

Meeting Logistics

Agenda

  1. Role Call
  2. Agenda Review
  3. Enterprise Architect (EA) update (John Quinn) (Tracker 1865)
  4. Petition to accept CDA R3 into the SAIF Architecture Program
  5. Review SAIF & Sound from Project Services (Rick Haddorff)
  6. Discuss Communication Plan (Tracker 1866)
  7. Discuss Recruiting for Project Leads
    1. Tracker 1864 - Attend an INM call; find a Project Lead for the INM Wrapper Project #619
  8. Quality Plan PSS Revisions (Gregg Seppala) (Tracker 1878)
  9. Action item review (see below)
  10. Next steps

Action Items to Review

1850: ID List of Tools that the Composite Order Project Need<br\> Patrick identified Collab Net. this week. Any others? Next step for Collab Net? <br\><br\>

1867: Determine what XML editor should be used for our work.<br\> Team, When should we begin work on this action item? <br\><br\> 1863: Attend Strruc Doc’s CDA R3 call<br\> 1861: 'Have Austin or Patrick join the EHR call (Tuesdays 2:30-4pm) and SOA call, Mondays at 4pm<br\> FYI: Patrick and Austin attended the EHR call on Tuesday; will join SOA next week.<br\> Austin's update from the EHR call: They have already been doing work to align with SAIF so I invited them to join one of our upcoming calls to present on that subject. They are tentatively scheduled for the 4/27 call (I've added that to the agenda for that day). Steve Hufnagle is probably going to the be presenter. I encouraged them to start participating in the SAIF AP calls, join the list server and participate in the MNM Artifact definition calls. I also indicated we need to figure out how EHR FM and the OO Composite order project need to work together. At least the dialog has been started. <br\><br\> 1851: Logo Ideas for the SAIF AP<br\> FYI: Two have been submitted and uploaded to SAIF AP's GForge Doc tab <br\><br\>

Link to the Complete List of Action Items/Issues/Risks (GForge)

Meeting Attendees

Facilitator Austin Kreisler Note taker(s) David Hamill
Attendee Name Affiliation
X Austin Kreisler TSC Chair
Brian Pech Interested Participant
X David Hamill HL7 HQ / Program Manager
Ed Tripp Domain Experts SD \ TSC
X Gregg Seppala Product Quality Plan Project
Jane Curry Tooling
X Jim McClay Emergency Care
John Quinn HL7 CTO
X Lloyd McKenzie MnM Work Group / SAIF Implementation Guide Pjt
Lorraine Constable Composite Order Pjt \ OO Behavioral Framework Pjt
X Lynn Laakso HL7 HQ / TSC Project Manager
X Patrick Loyd OO Work Group / Composite Order Pjt
X Rick Haddorff Project Services WG / SAIF Pilot Coordination Pjt
Robert Lario Object Management
Steve Hufnagel ArB / SAIF Book Project / SOA
Wendy Huang Implementation Conformance WG
Quorum Requirements Met: Yes
quorum achieved as defined in the Work Group Decision Making Practices?


Minutes

Minutes/Conclusions Reached:

Enterprise Architect (EA) update (John Quinn) (Tracker 1865)

  • Patrick: Has a CD copy of it, and Lorraine needs a copy, but we don’t have it any other way of getting Lorraine Constable EA software
  • Patrick indicated progress is inhibited right now and need access to EA.

Discuss Recruiting for Project Leads<br\> Tracker 1864 - Attend an INM call; find a Project Lead for the INM Wrapper Project #619

  • Patrick: Key to success is to obtain resources.
  • For the pilot, we should find a couple of SOA resources and a couple of Struc Doc resources.
  • SOA facilitators, Services facilitators and Documents facilitators are the needed roles.
  • After the pilot, an big issue is that each group will need Services faclitators.
  • Patrick is not available to run the INM Wrapper project
  • INM is going to solicit for a project lead.
  • One way to successfully recruit resources, is to create a communication plan.
  • Austin: Create a Help Wanted section on the SAIF AP Wiki.
  • This can be done prior to PIC getting their work going on their effort of matching HL7 members with ‘needs and availability/expierience’ .

Discuss Communication Plan (Tracker 1866)

  • The communication plan should address how the pilot is progressing, how the IG is progressing, indicate “when will this affect me?”, indicate WIIFM (what’s in it for me), and when it will be available for projects to be SAIF branded.
  • Explain how SAIF should be implemented with existing standards.
  • First Task: Create an outline for a Communication Plan.
  • Austin: To start, he will talk up the SAIF AP at May 2011 WGM in Orlando. Will talk about it at Saturday’s TSC, present to Board on Tuesday, present at General Session, Wed Q4 SAIF AP meeting.

Review SAIF & Sound from Project Services (Rick Haddorff)

  • Rick reviewed Project #676 at a high level (http://www.hl7.org/special/Committees/projman/searchableProjectIndex.cfm?action=edit&ProjectNumber=676)
  • Progress to date:
  • Developed a PowerPoint discussion issues of moving from current artifacts to SAIF artifacts, and how they integrate in the HL7 Ballot Cycles.
  • Created a White Paper based on the PowerPoint to provide more detail. The White Paper is still under review. Austin recommended the SAIF AP team be part of the review, as well as MnM if they want to.
  • The SAIF AP Communication Plan could use the PowerPoint and/or the White Paper if it chose to.
  • Rick felt the White Paper is more useful as a Communication tool rather than an Implementation Guide.
  • Gregg: The White Paper seems to focus on new standards. How should SAIF be implemented with existing standards?

Petition to accept CDA R3 (Project 477) into the SAIF Architecture Program

  • Struc Docs is proposing this be done.
  • SD WG is busy with meaningful use impacts to CDA R2, so SD WG has time to work on CDA R3.
  • How should the SAIF AP team handle these types of petitions?
  • Patrick: Keep the petition process simple, however be cognizant of the resource needs (various facilitators and modelers).

Quality Plan PSS Revisions (Gregg Seppala) (Tracker 1878)

  • Gregg summarized the changes that the scope now focuses on the Quality Plan is SAIF AP specific.
  • Gregg will modify Quality Plan PSS and resubmit it to the TSC for review/approval

Gforge Accounts can be requested via: http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/account/?action=UserAdd


1850: ID List of Tools that the Composite Order Project Need<br\> Patrick identified Collab Net. this week. Any others? Next step for Collab Net? <br\> Collab Net is freeware, and Patrick, Lorraine can access it.<br\> However, in the future, if we have 50 or 100 people using it, should we form a relationship with Collab Net? Ask John Quinn for his input on this. <br\><br\> 1867: Determine what XML editor should be used for our work. <br\> Team, When should we begin work on this action item?<br\> Patrick: When MnM decides what the schemas will look like, that’s when we need it. Until then, we’ll manually create schemas.<br\> This item will require coordination with MnM and Tooling.<br\> Lloyd: Estimates that we should discuss this item around July.<br\> The PS WG’s coordination project needs to coordinate this effort.<br\>

Adjourned 10:58 AM Eastern Time


New Action Items

Dave – Follow up with JQuinn and Wilfred to get EA to Lorraine.
Dave – Add an Issue to GForge that after the pilot, a big issue is that each group will need Services facilitators.
Dave – Create action item for Austin to create the Help Wanted page on the SAIF AP Wiki. Due Date: Before Orlando
Rick – Send the White Paper the SAIF AP for their review.
Dave – Add an Action Item to review the SAIF and Sound White paper when Project Services completes the White Paper. May be part of Governance discussion in Orlando. Add a SAIF and Sound agenda item for 5/4 conference call.
Dave – Change Project 477 CDA R3 to be under SAIF AP, and CDA R3’s wiki page link to SAIF AP page
Gregg – Modify Quality Plan PSS and resubmit it to the TSC for review/approval.

Dave – Add the following Action Items:

  • Assuming the SAIF AP accepts the CDA R3 project onboard tomorrow, we've already surfaced a new item that needs coordination between CDA R3 and Security/CBCC around Confidentiality codes.


  • CBCC and Security need to provide feedback on the CDA R3 project on use of confidentiality in CDA R3. This may very well be related to the Security Cookbook discussion that we've scheduled for the 4/20 call.


Next Meeting / Preliminary Agenda Items

Coordinate message for communicating the SAIF AP in Orlando. – Dave to add to the agenda a week or two before Orlando (May 4th call)

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