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ITS WGM Minutes 2015 Oct

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ITS - Atlanta, GA - October 2015

Monday, October 5


chair: Dale Nelson scribe: Dale Nelson

JSON comments – consider moving JSON FMM to 4

  1. Defer
  2. Comfortable with
  3. FMM4
  1. do we like representation
  2. is presence a valid reason to reject
  3. FMM rules meet rules

Need tests that include comments in order to Get feedback from implementer community as to whether comments are necessary

RDF – subcommittee doing RDF representation of FHIR.

Tuesday, October 6

Wednesday, October 7


chair: Dale Nelson scribe: Paul Knapp

ITS/RDF over conference bridge line

Joining on phone: Claude Nanjo, Eric Prudommeaux

RDF for Semantic Interoperability

Establish semantic interoperability of structured healthcare information (using RDF) RDF & OWL as semantic bridges between standards leading to standards convergence. Illusion of one big standard.

  1. create RDF and OWL defns of these stds
  2. Why RDF
    1. Info rather than syntax
    2. Multi-schema friendly
    3. Diverse data interop
    4. Inference
  3. SemTech conference explored use of RDF as Univ Healthcare Exchange language (2013) PCAST, resulting in Yosemite manifesto

Receive info from forms; mine info from Data at rest vs. data in motion.

Focus is not on data we are collecting Distinction is not important, understanding it is. FHIR façade to express RDF internally.

Roadmap Interoperability Standardize the standards is our focus


  • FHIR RDF and Ontology
  • PhUSE-FDA (formerly CDISC2RDF)
  • Computable links from FHIR to RIM (pharma e.g.)


  • Bridging VA, Intermountain and other models
  • ICD-11 and SNOMED
  • C-CDA RDF representations
  • High level concept mapping to RDF (AR typeCodes, etc)



  • Mapping between FHIR XML/JSON and FHIR RDF, lossless conversion of FHIR instance
  • Ontology describing FHIR RDF
  • Fairly low level ontology

Instead of creating another standard, use existing OBO work if possible.

How to handle valuesets and external terminologies.


chair: Paul Knapp scribe: Dale Nelson


  • HL7 over HTTP Spec
  • Ken Rubin/SOA
  • FHIR

HL7 Over HTTP (drop-in replacement for MLLP e.g.) Protocol for moving bytes. POST only.

  • HTTP
  • HTTPS acct/psw
  • HTTPS w/ singon

Ballot material that went out was wrong. Reconciled info not correct. Will fix in published material.

Ken Rubin:

PSS co-sponsor opportunity. Cloud blueprint Cloud initiative – SOA has challenges “where do we affect the market”. Cloud creates opportunities for sharing services. Where do HL7 stds intersect with orgs making this transition. Core group involved for 10 weeks; project scope stmt made. Have table of contents OK. Approach like design patterns work. Survey members / participants for patterns Identify guidelines around security and privacy. Work session held Tues Q4 with good support.

DN: ITS is interested in staying informed to later decide on whether to co-sponor.

FHIR Having a comment in a payload forces a receiver to actively hunt for and reject instances where they exist. Filtering out data still holds you liable. Comments in JSON are easier to deal with. There exist businesses where comments are not welcome. Consequence of having comments at all means you have to go through and reject everything that has comments. This is not without cost. It requires work.

If we follow all our rules, we end up loading work into. Reason for comment element in JSON is to be able to handle a round trip. Use of comments is different – not really reuseable in JSON.

Systems can have no expectations that comments will be preserved.

Motion: Remove comments from JSON. Add this to the XML: Systems handling resources MAY ignore or reject instances that contain comments, and other systems SHALL NOT expect systems to preserve them or behave differently because of them. Move Grahame Grieve / Paul Knapp 5-0-0 (this is a substantive change)

HTTP Patch If you find this condition, make change, else return error. Others, patch is same as post.

FMM level When you get to FMM4 or FMM5 if you make a breaking change then there is a review. Consult with the community rather than not change too often. This is not written in process. ITS balked because this wasn’t stated.

Discussion regarding the FMM levels and the process around making, restricting and approving changes for level 4 and 5. The committee recognises that the process is in evelopment but that features of the process would be to poll the implementation communities when breaking changes are proposed to gain insight on the impact of the proposed changes as part of the change approval process to guide the timing and acceptability of the changes to the community. Since the process is not yet described, ITS expects to be consulted as the process is developed

Motion: Mark the XML and JSON formats as FMM level 5, and ask FMG to include this in the technical correction, and use the motion up above be used as a guinea pig for the process. Paul Knapp / Grahame Grieve 4-0-0

Thursday, October 8


chair: Paul Knapp scribe: unknown

No quorum


chair: Paul Knapp scribe: Dale Nelson

No Quorum - next meeting planning


chair: Paul Knapp scribe: unknown

Meeting cancelled


Name Init. Affiliation Email Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday
Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4
NELSON, Dale DN Accenture × × × ×
KNAPP, Paul PK Knapp Consulting Inc. × × ×
KAVANAGH, Richard RKv Health & Social Care Information Centre ×
SHAPIRO, Ron RSh Qvera ×
SHEKLETON, Kevin KSh Cerner Corporation ×
DONNELLY, Michael MDo Epic ×
MOORE, Sean SMo Epic ×
PECH, Brian BP Kaiser Permanente ×
MULDERS, Rob RMu Furore r.mulders@furore ×
WANG, Yunwei YW Intelligent Medical Objects (IMO) ×
KONISHI, Yukinori YK HL7 Japan ×
HIRAI, Masaki MHi ×
TAKASAKA, Sadori STa ×
ETTEMA, Richard RE, Inc. ×
LOMAYESVA, Paul PL InterSystems ×
GRENZ, Chris CGz Analysts International ×
MANDEL, Joshua JM Boston Children's Hospital ×
STOECKERT, Chris CSk chris.stoeckert ×
KRAMER, Mark MK The MITRE Corporation × ×
PEYTCHEV, Vassil VP Epic × ×
VAN DER ZEL, Michael MV HL7 Netherlands ×
SHAFARMAN, Mark MS Shafarman Consulting ×
BOOTH, David DB Hokukahu ×
MALLIA, Tony TMa tony.mallia ×
GRIEVE, Grahame GG Health Intersections Pty Ltd ×